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May
18, 2004: Police Raid WDW
Detectives
testified that the couple admitted to using glue sticks to beat their son. It's
an idea that a NewsChannel Five Investigation discovered, originated inside Remnant
Fellowship, a church that preaches strict discipline of children.
Detectives
said they hope the search will yield evidence that may explain
what the Smiths were thinking and what role, if any, their religious
beliefs played in the death of the child.
Weigh Down Workshop Question #1: investigating the controversy
Question
#2: Since WDW produces fruit, why not use it?
Email Responses to Question #2
More WDW Questions and Answers: Signs? Programs?
Now what?
Former
WDW Coordinator's & Follower's testimonies
Resources
WDW
Questions and Answers:
Lynette, I have read your website materials. I am a coordinator trying
to discern future course of action through investigating the literature
floating around "out there". Trying to maintain objective, prayerful
discernment in assisting my church in this matter. Weigh Down has
been a marvelous ministry. It provides an excellent tool through which
God can work toward saving and nuturing people who might otherwise
not be touched.
In all of the tapes, which I've listened to over and over again, these
issues we are discussing here are not an issue. Rather, the focus
on developing a strong relationship with Jesus/God is encouraged again
and again, and thus it happens for a large majority of participants.
I am concerned that this tool will no longer be available to people
because of all this, when in fact the doctrine base may not be what
we as faithful Christians need to consider. Anyway...... I still am
asking for a more personal reply from you. thank you.
Dear
Friend,
The problem for Christians who decide to continue using the Weigh
Down Workshop materials is that it claims to be biblical and Christ-centered.
Since Gwen has denied the Trinity and also teaches a works-based salvation,
the program is not Christian and not biblical.
Yes, I understand where you are coming from in that I understand many
people have been drawn closer to God through the program. But, when
you go through Gwen's materials you will not find a clear gospel message..
one that is based solely on grace through faith in Christ (Ephes.
2:8). Also, because Gwen clearly teaches in her statement on the Trinity
that Christ is not co-equal in power and glory with God the Father
and in fact, she teaches that they are separate beings... she is teaching
unorthodox, false doctrine about the very nature of God.
Thus, it is important that evangelical, orthodox Christians do not
associate with her programs since these teachings distort the truth
about who God is: God as 3 persons sharing one essence... Father,
Son and Holy Spirit. The WDW teaching is closer to what Jehovah Witnesses
teach about Jesus Christ... that He is less than God the Father. Yes,
Jesus submitted Himself voluntarily to God the Father while on earth
but, He claimed equality with His Father when He said:
"you must honor the Son even as you honor the Father" and in John
5:23 and 8:58: John 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor
the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father,
who sent him. NIV
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham
was born, I am!" NIV
Though solid Christian believers who may not be swayed doctrinely
by Gwen Shamblin's teachings may recognize the distortion of truth
in Gwen's teachings and be able to segregate it out.. many Christians
will not and many unbelievers who take the course will be swayed to
believe her works-based teaching and that Jesus is lesser than God
the Father.
Any belief that makes Jesus less than God will not save because
we know that only God in human flesh could redeem mankind through
His death on the cross. And we must believe who Christ is... His claim
to be God and that He is one with God.
Our first duty as Christians is to preach the gospel and teach the
scriptures accurately. If there is a program, no matter how good it
is in principle... that teaches and distorts the basic message of
Christianity...then, we must stand up for the truth of the Word of
God. In this article found at the Southern Baptist Convention site,
I believe that Steven McKinion explains why Gwen's teaching not only
undermines Christianity's message of salvation but is false:
Shamblin's
Doctrine of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Steven A.
McKinion Gwen Shamblin's recent denial of the Christian understanding
of God as three Persons sharing one Essence undermines Christianity's
message of salvation. The gospel is the wonderful account of how God
Himself, not merely His representative, came to give Himself for us
and for our salvation. What Shamblin's position fails to recognize
is that a Savior who is not both fully man and fully God cannot save.
Why is the picture of Christ she presents so unacceptable to a genuine
Christian faith? The death of her Jesus is merely an example for us
to follow. Scripture, on the other hand, describes how the Word, who
is God (John 1:1), became a human being (John 1:14). Christ's death
was not simply an example for us, but was the propitiation for our
sin (1 John 2:2). To be the mediator between God and man, he must
be both God and man. Only God was able to provide the sacrificial
death for our redemption, and this was accomplished through God's
— not someone else's — incarnation.
In addition, her picture does not allow God to be our Savior. For
her, the savior is a lesser divine figure, not God Himself, who came
to show us how to live. We owe our gratitude, allegiance, and worship
to someone other than God. What has God done for us, in her understanding?
Nothing. Her conception of God leads inevitably to a gospel that is
works-oriented. In other words, Jesus showed us how to live and we
are to follow His example.
The biblical view of God, as He is revealed to us as three distinct
Persons sharing one essence, leads to a gospel in which the one true
God lived a genuine human life, died a genuine human death, and rose
from the dead to offer us salvation. If the Son is not co-equal and
co-eternal with the Father, there is no Good News for us to preach."
Steven A. McKinion is Assistant Professor of Church History at Southeastern
Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC.
"Here's an excerpt from an excellent article I found about the Trinity
called Who
is Jehovah, Who is Jesus? by Phillip R. Johnson (from Grace
To you, John MacArthur's Web site):
8. Jesus Himself claims to be God.
Finally, if Jesus is God, we might expect Him to say so. Have you
ever wondered why He didn't simply state, "I am God?" and put an end
to any possibility of confusion? Actually, He did. What He says in
John 8:58 was to His Jewish audience a far more explicit statement
than if He had merely said "I am God." It is important to see this
passage in its context. In verse 53, we see that the Pharisees were
becoming uncomfortable with Jesus' claims, beginning to suspect that
He was putting Himself on a level of authority no mere man would have
any right to. They said:
53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died?
The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"54 Jesus
answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father
who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'; 55 and you have
not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know
Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and
was glad." 57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty
years old, and have You seen Abraham?"58 Jesus said to them, "Truly,
truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore
they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and
went out of the temple.
Notice that these men understood precisely what Jesus was saying.
And because He obviously also understood what they were asking, His
reply is all that much more significant. He was telling them He was
God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning
bush, "I AM." He could have made no stronger claim of deity. If that
had not been His meaning, if he were claiming only to be the firstborn
angel, He would have said, "before Abraham was born, I was."
The gospel of John includes a whole series of statements Jesus made
about Himself using this name "I AM"—I am the way, the truth, and
the life (Jn. 14:6); I am the good shepherd; I am the door; I am the
bread of life; I am the light of the world. Each one of these statements,
studied in context, reveals that He was making claim after claim of
absolute deity.
The biblical evidence for the deity of Christ is conclusive. It is
overwhelming, irrefutable evidence. In fact, what we have covered
here is only a representative sample. I haven't even mentioned John
10:30, "I and the Father are one." That, and many other similar passages
could be adduced to prove even more conclusively that according to
Scripture, He is God. So much evidence cannot be swept aside or ignored.
You either believe it, or you condemn yourself to an unthinkable eternity.
In fact, Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you shall die
in your sins" (Jn. 8:24). --------------------------------
Note well what the author of this is implying at the end: that Jesus
was saying, in effect, "if you don't believe I am Jehovah, you will
die in your sins." Compare with Gwen's Teaching
on the Trinity: who writes: "Teachers of the Trinity teach that
Jesus is Jehovah; they have no scriptures to back this up, and why
don’t they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jehovah is
Jehovah?"
Helen"
I hope that this is helpful for you... I hope that you will realize
the severity of the problem Christians are having with Gwen's teaching
regarding the nature of God and salvation and her divergence from
the very basic biblical teachings of the Christian faith.
By
the way, I wonder how Gwen explains this verse which explicitly identifies
the Messiah as the "mighty God, everlasting
Father"?
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the
government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful
Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. NIV
Please feel free to write again. God bless you as you investigate
this.
Lynette Hoy, NCC, LCPC
Marriage and Family Counselor
"Therefore, God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the
name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee
should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Phil. 2:11-12
Question
#2.
Mr. and Mrs. Hoy:
I was not sure how to contact you directly, so I hope this gets
to you. I have read most of the material you have cited about the
Weigh Down controversy, and would like to express my feelings on
this matter. I just found this information last week, and have invested
a lot of time in looking it over. I am a coordinator for Weigh Down
and I appreciate the information regarding the Trinity, faith by
works, and "cults". I was especially grateful for the articles that
were strictly informational. I am an intelligent being that can
draw my own conclusions, given accurate information.
However, I feel many of the articles had advice
and tones that were not helpful, but hurtful. When I refer to "you"
in this letter, I am not referring to one reading in your website,
but several, with the same tone of condemnation.
I am wondering what type of programming you advise for alcoholics,
drug addicts, and bulimics. If a church member you knew wanted to
attend AA for alcoholism, would you support it? If a bulimic wanted
to enter a hospital for her condition, would you feel like that
was a good choice? If a drug dependent parishioner wanted to go
to a treatment center, or attend a 12 step program, would you discourage,
or support it? Many of these programs (12 step) support that clients
should look to "A Higher Power" for their healing? Is that valid?
Can they be helped by these programs, or not. I believe they can.
I have seen it myself. Just like I have seen healing in the Weigh
Down workshop classes.
This class is producing spiritual fruit, whether you can acknowledge
it, or not. Do you realize what a burden it is to be addicted to
something (food, drugs, bulimia/anorexia, alcohol, etc)? Since you
are in counseling and law, you must understand the pervasive nature
of addiction. The object of the addict is coveted, thought about
constantly, etc. The addicted person can not wait to be alone with
the addiction. When I was overweight, I would get so angry before
church, because my clothes hurt(too tight and uncomfortable), looked
horrible, and made me feel hopelessly trapped in a cycle of indulgence,
gluttony, anger, and sin.
Obesity is a leading cause of death in our country, and Satan is
using this tool to kill us spiritually and physically. GOD has used
the Weigh Down workshop to deliver me from this addiction to food.
Now, I chew on the Word. I sing praises before church. My bible
time has at least tripled since this class. I pray daily, and throughout
the day. I am an active member in MY HOME CHURCH. After our first
session, I saw others make the same gains (over 80% of the class).
Of the approximately 10 pages that are completed each week in the
Weigh Down workshop workbooks, about 3(30%) are from Gwen, while
7(70%) are journal pages that allow the participant to work out
their own salvation with the Lord. According to the articles on
your website this is not important. He can work through this program,
just like He can work through 12 step programs that emphasize a
"Higher Power".
Many of the articles I read on your website mentioned fighting for
our faith. I am choosing to do this by staying on the front line,
rather than fleeing from the battle, as you advised. Participants
in my class have said this class is an answer to their prayers.
Were they deluded? Do you realize how cruel it would be to pull
it out from under them because of doctrine? Do they matter less
than that? Is our Triune God so weak that He can not work in, of,
and through this program? My God is mighty and He has used this
as a tool to do His work, whether the author (Gwen) understands
His nature, or not. I find it ironic that you choose to cite Catholic,
Protestant, etc. groups when naming who supports the Trinity doctrine.
Some of these groups do not even encourage regular bible reading,
biblical baptism, etc.
This session of Weigh Down, at my church, has brought in Catholics,
Lutherans, etc. all around the table together searching for God.
The central focus of this program is not weight loss, but focusing
on God. On the third night of class, we paired up into prayer groups.
One participant from one of the above mentioned religious groups
could not share scripture, because she had no idea how to use the
Bible. Well, her partner taught her then and there. The same thing
happened our first semester. All of our churches, resources, practices,
literature, etc. is imperfect. Have you checked the producers of
every book, hymn, VBS kit, Sunday school book, etc. for their stance
on the Trinity and works? Why should this be any different?
I do not worship Gwen. I find it insulting that many of you think
we are so gullible that we would pack up and leave town to worship
in her Remnant church. I will continue to use this tool to help
feed His sheep as long as He is working through it. When He is done
with it, I will be done with it. My loyalty is only to Him. I will
continually bring in supplemental resources that focus on grace,
mercy, forgiveness, and the nature of God (Triune), while I stay
in the trenches. Do you realize how much more I will need the Lord
to do this, rather than quit? That is the easy way out! The participants
can just go a few miles away to another church with the same program.
The Lord will constantly guide me through this because I am His
faithful servant.
In addition, I will call the Weigh Down staff and share my beliefs
and scripture. If they are lost, shouldn't we help them? Or, should
we just wash our hands of the whole thing, like Pilate. Have they
committed unforgivable sins by falling into inaccurate beliefs about
the nature of God? Additionally, I was astounded that not one article
that I read asked the reader to prayerfully consider their actions.
Not one of you advised being led by the Lord. I prayed about this
program for months before it was approved in my church. Are you
telling me God set me up? Do you feel that I prayed to serve Him
and he led me to a place of failure, embarrassment, guilt, and regret?
That is not the God I serve. When Jesus went to trial and died on
the cross, where were the lepers He healed, the blind He gave sight
to, the lame he set free? Well, I am one soul the LORD (Not Gwen)
set free who will not keep silent while the medium He worked through
is crucified. Is your faith so minuscule that you actually believe
that He can not use anything to do His bidding?
I hope that when you all get done patting each other on the back
for being great Berea's, that you use those hands to bow in prayer
to our Triune God. Gwen needs prayer to understand the true nature
of God! The fact that He is three in one is so much more powerful
than her view of Jesus as a subordinate. Her employees need our
prayers and support. The coordinators, who continue to harvest what
they did not reap, need your prayer and support! We all need to
work in unity to teach, not divisiveness. I appreciate your time
and consideration in this matter. I would greatly appreciate any
personal response you have to this letter. I consider myself a student
viewing all sides of this issue. I hope you are, as well. In His
Service, Amelia
Dear Friend, the issue to me is that WDW calls itself "Christian",
"biblical" and "Christ-centered". Simply put, any program
which denies the Trinity is not "Christian", "biblical" or "Christ-centered".
I am a student of the Bible and have recognized through very thorough
study of Gwen's teachings as contrasted to scriptural doctrine that
she is a cult leader.
Evangelicals, main-line denominations, apologists such as the "Bible
Answer Man" .....Hank Hanegraff, Don Veinot, Watchman Fellowship,
Greg Koukl, Southern Baptist Convention, Lutherans, Focus on the
Family and more all agree that WDW is teaching false doctrine about
the central doctrines of the faith..... denying the Trinity and
teaching salvation by works.....
If Gwen wants to call her program secular or whatever......fine.
But, don't call it Christian and Biblical. She denies the essence
of the nature of God in the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit....
have the same nature, deity and characteristics. Her false doctrine
leads anyone taking the program astray spiritually..... and that
is the problem. Thank you for writing. I think that the articles
referenced on the site.... speak about all the issues very clearly.
Lynette Hoy, NCC, LCPC
Other former coordinators respond to Question #2:
Dear Amelia,
other people who had been coordinators and participants of the WDW
program for their feedback on the email you sent to me. These people
have all been where you are at. In fact, I am sure that some of
them would love to write to you if you would be interested. I did
keep your name and email anonymous..... So, here are some of their
responses to help you as you think through the issues. You may find
some of these difficult to read...... but, remember each person
has been where you are .....questioning and investigating. They
now have left WD. I hope the points and issues they bring up will
cause you to see that the truth of the gospel is at stake here.
And I hope you will continue to investigate this.... and determine
that you cannot support a program ..... which calls itself Christian
but contradicts the basic doctrines of the Christian faith and the
gospel of grace.
The articles and quotes on my site are not there to promote divisiveness....
the problem is that WDW by promoting a non-trinitarian view and
gospel by works teachings in the program.... has divided itself
already from mainline, evangelical Christianity and is leading followers
astray. The goal of my web page is help people see the truth of
the gospel and the importance of standing up for it and the deity
of Christ..... There would be no "good news"..... forgiveness, redemption,
salvation, reconciliation if Jesus Christ was not God..... Our only
hope is in Him....
As a biblical Christian counselor, I support and present "Christian"
programs which hold to the Apostle's Creed.... the core doctrines
of Christianity. I teach and dissuade people from following false
teachers..... which is what I believe Gwen is. And by the way, there
are other solid Christian weight management programs..... such as
Thin Again/Within
by the Arthur and Judy Halliday.
They are coming out or have come out with a video program. In Christ,
Lynette Hoy
Email
responses from former participants and coordinators:
1. "Lynette, Though this person brings up good points about the
fruit that Weigh Down can produce she/he misses the point that the
information Gwen is giving people could seriously damage someone's
spiritual walk and even confuse someone. She may not worship Gwen
but many people do and look to her as their theological resource.
AA and those programs don't claim to be teaching the Bible when
someone attends the organization, they just tell someone to go to
their "higher power". They are also not interpreting scripture as
Gwen is. There may only be 3 to 10 pages on Gwen speak in each weekly
lesson but it is still dangerous because it is not biblically sound.
As far as contacting this person I am not sure how to do that without
a email address but we can pray for them. I am deeply concerned
that this person's church isn't questioning Weigh Down and their
beliefs if they are a Bible believing church. Many organizations
can "help" someone to heal from different strongholds in their lives
but that doesn't mean they are something we should endorse within
our own churches. We need to continue to pray for the people still
in Weigh Down that they see what damage this misinformation can
do.Lots of organizations have "fruit" to show off. That doesn't
make them Christian."
2. "Lynette, Mormons teach abstinence....they cherish children and
large families....they believe that marriage is from God....they
do not believe in drinking alcohol...etc. They live strong good
moral lives. Their fruit is good and plentiful. That doesn't make
them Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that living a godly pure
life is the only way to somehow make it into heaven. They try to
live good lives. Does that make them Christian? No...they lead lives
of quiet desparation....hoping that they will make it. These cults
always have some truth. Does that mean we should welcome them into
our homes and churches because there is some truth to what they
teach? Never!! We understand that these folks are deluded and hopeless.
WD does have some truth...but quoting the Bible does not a Christian
make. I am not a Bible scholar....but I have made it a practice
over the years to attend Bible study and "study to show thyself
approved." I don't need a degree to know that Gwen has twisted scripture
to get it to fit her message. Jesus has been demoted to "an example
of complete obedience" and robbed of His rightful place. How sad
that in the name of weight loss (or laying down strongholds...whatever)
people are willing to embrace a warped gospel. No....not gospel
because gospel means "good news." That good news is that Jesus paid
the price for us...end of story. We don't have to be good enough
to somehow make it at the end of our "70 year job interview." In
Christ alone,"
3. "Lynette, I was in her shoes a year or so ago. It is easy to
justify staying in WDW for the sake of all the 'good parts' of it
we saw. I, too, felt that I couldn't give up on it because of the
fruit it was bearing in my class I coordinated. I was referred to
your page as well, and at first reacted exactly like this woman
who wrote you. Gradually, God opened my eyes, though, and now I
am no longer involved and our church has dropped it. That took prayer,
research like this lady who wrote you is doing, and more prayer,
and eventually I heard God's leading. I believe this woman who wrote
you is on her way to understanding,......We need to pray for her
and maybe you could occasionally touch bases with her. That is how
I eventually came to be on this board...by people praying for my
eyes to open and keeping in touch with me through email gently showing
me the truth until I saw it for myself."
4. "Dear Lynette, Whomever wrote to you sure opened up lots to "comment
on"..There was one statement made which stood out ...the statement
is: "My loyalty is only to Him" That is just not so. The implication
is that God doesn't 'care'about false teachers and whether or not
we "put up with them".....If He doesn't care about"false teachers"..then
why does the "God breathed" Word have the teachings concerning them.
Jesus is NOT in any way honored by our "putting up with" false teaching
concerning Him. I am not sitting in a 'holier than thou' seat...I
have had to "learn"..by wrong choices also. And..I still do..even
tho I've really learned to listen to Him closer and avoid doing
anything which I'm not 'clear' about from His Word. I'd rather forgo
doing something...until I know for sure it is not contrary to God's
Word. (That's generally speaking..as I said..I do such "duh" things
at times!) As I read the letter sent to you..the thought came to
me.."my dear..thou dost protest too much!"...and so, I agree with
Marissa..that as this person is "thinking"...the Spirit is working..otherwise
why take the time to check things out..and..that he/she wrote to
you says alot. There is some definite "pricking of the heart" occuring
and so let us give prayers of thanksgiving and offer up prayers
for continued conviction...He is faithful and..will most certainly
do so. I am still having a rough time with saying that "God brought
WD into my life or church"...I do say that He ALLOWED it...we needed
to learn this lesson and hopefully we have..to seek HIM..and His
Truth..and not rely on our own 'rationalizations'.. I feel that
WD is evil..and I mean that literally..and God is not the author
of evil or confusion--HE does NOT tempt us at any time....but He
allows it..for we have freewill...the wonderful truth is ..that
He does shed light on the darkness that we seem to "run" to at times..and
He gives us enough light get out of it..one step at a time. Anyone
please help me on this. But , each time I read that "God brought
WD to me"...I cringe. Perhaps, I need a fresh perspective...some
gentle guidance here. In His Love,"
Lynette J. Hoy, NCC, LCPC Marriage & Family Counselor CounselCare
Connection, 1100 Lake, Suite 245, Oak Park, IL 60301. 708.524.3333
"Therefore, God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the
name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee
should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the
Father." Phil. 2:9-11
In conclusion,
it is obvious that the WDW organization has moved away from the biblical,
orthodox Christian doctrines which teach that God is three Persons
in One: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that Jesus Christ is fully God,
that the Holy Spirit is a person and fully God, and that salvation
is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Resources:
See the Christian Research Institute
and Midwest Christian Outreach
for more information on cults. Please
contact Don Veinot at 630-527-9028
for a copy of the MCO Journal with the Weighed Down With False
Doctrine article or Lynette
Hoy.
Read A Response
to Gwen by MCO and
Christian Research
Institute article on WDW as well as the Apologetics
Index article on WDW.
See the CHRISTIAN
APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY article: Weigh
Down Weight Loss founder Gwen Shamblin denies the Trinity. They
state that Gwen Shamblin's "view is very close to the Jehovah
Witness teaching about God".
See
Dr. Ray Pritchard's sermon on the Trinity: God
in Three Persons: A Doctrine We Barely Understand for a
biblical view.
Read Who
is Jehovah, Who is Jesus? by Phillip R. Johnson.
See Shamblin's
Doctrine of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Steven
A. McKinion.
And for Calvary Memorial Church's statement on the Trinity, the
Nature of God and Salvation by Grace see their: Articles
of Faith.
Top of page
See the
Weigh
Down Workshop News, Links, Articles, and Controversial Teachings Reviewed
page.
Lynette Hoy, NCC, LCPC |
